First off — if you have a come bet that doesn’t have max odds on it, you would always increase your odds before adding any double dip type of situation.

Will try and answer your question. You are correct that playing a put bet is indeed a bad bet for the reasons you mentioned. Questions for you–was the player making the put bet on the pass line after a point is established? Is the player making the put bet on a second box number on the first roll after the pass line bet is established? Both, by definition are put bets.

If a player makes a put bet through the come line and then hits that box number it would not be double dipping as it would be an "off and on" situation with only one bet still on that number. You would not have 2 come bets on the same box number. In other words the original put bet comes down and the new come bet would go up. Still just one bet on the table hence the name "off and on."

Double dipping is when you already have a box number covered with a come bet with max odds, you hit that number and it remains up because it is an "off and on", and now you want more money on that box number and you place that number—on that number you now have both a come bet and a place bet—hence the number is double dipped.

I guess if you have the bank roll to put up a put bet of say $10 with 20 or more odds you would get the house vig down way below the 1.4% on on a pass line /come bet. Question do you have the bankroll for do this on a bunch of box numbers?

If you wish to discuss, please send us a private message through the message board and we can visit personally.

Doc

Hello Doc, thanks for your input on this topic. To answer your question, the player was putting a put bet on 2 or 3 numbers after the point was established. His bets were $10 put bet with $1000 in odds for all 3 numbers having 4 numbers in action. My question is, and you may already have answered this but I just want to be clear, does the put bet with odds come down if the come bet travels to that same number that has the put bet on it? The table was a 100X odds.

Thank you for your help,

Cmcierra

Looking for some input from the masters of the craps table.

WIth the higher limits at the casinos I frequent, $5 are now $25, I do not have the bankroll to play max odds (5x) on a come bet.  WHat I am doing when I throw is $25 PL and 2x ($50) in odds.  Then I put 2 more come bets with 2x odds.  So I have 3 numbers with 2x odds.  

My questions is after I hit a few times am I better increasing my odds on the three come bets or add a fourth come bet with 2x odds?

 

THanks

Posted by: @cliffm1

Looking for some input from the masters of the craps table.

WIth the higher limits at the casinos I frequent, $5 are now $25, I do not have the bankroll to play max odds (5x) on a come bet.  WHat I am doing when I throw is $25 PL and 2x ($50) in odds.  Then I put 2 more come bets with 2x odds.  So I have 3 numbers with 2x odds.  

My questions is after I hit a few times am I better increasing my odds on the three come bets or add a fourth come bet with 2x odds?

 

THanks

Great question!

I would look at it this way if I am shooting. At 2X odds you are bringing the house edge down to .61% – a very good percentage. If you take 5X odds you bring it down to .33% – even lower.

So if you look at just percentages you should increase your odds. But I understand about the $25 table. So I would probably increase the odds if I hit the same number twice and on the third hit go up in odds. But if I am throwing all over the board I would probably go to another number with the 2X odds

Hope this helps

Dom

 

Cmcierra, I figured you meant to reply to “Dom” not “Doc.”  But I was complimented that you put me in the same class with the Dominator!!  🙂  

I am working on an experiment I have been doing on “pass line / come betting” Vrs “place betting” using a hybrid of making low place bests and using come bets to “replace” the place bets having the place bets be on the table for a very short time.  

Hope to post this experiment in the the near future.

Doc

Doc have you posted this experiment ?

@dr-crapology

There is an excellent discussion about place betting vs. pass/come betting with odds for a range of SRRs by Stickman that might be of interest as a comparison to your experiment, Doc.  As an engineer, I like to compare theory with experiments because it has been my experience that they tend to compliment each other.

Link:

 https://www.goldentouchcraps.com/articl … n_037.html 

Stickman makes a complex subject understandable and he uses the math for the basis of his conclusions. This is one of many reasons why I am a GTC fan.

___________________________________________________________

The more I practice, the luckier I get.

I was hoping that the experiment was one were you would bet like 132 across and start replacing with come bets . I understand that is a lot to risk on the first few rolls . A point 7 would put you in a big hole . When the roll goes on you will be having less at risk and more wins . After you have your your money that was at risk you could then up the odds on your come bets . Which should be in your SRR range . 

It will depend on what numbers you roll as to how fast you get your money back .Also if you start rolling the same numbers it will take longer .

I wonder about this because of a time when I was rolling at a table were a guy would bet across on me and with every hit he would take that bet down . I was betting on the 6 and 8 . I rolled all the numbers and then 7 nd out with him having nothing on the table . I did this 3 times with winning vary little compared to him and I then left to think about what happened .

It is not the same experiment but close .

As far as come betting how many wins should we rack before we go up on more then 2 come bets ? I hate when I get up on 3 come bets then 7 out . Then I love when I am off and on with 2 or more come bets . 

Good Rolling .

Posted by: @finisher

I was hoping that the experiment was one were you would bet like 132 across and start replacing with come bets . I understand that is a lot to risk on the first few rolls . A point 7 would put you in a big hole . When the roll goes on you will be having less at risk and more wins . After you have your your money that was at risk you could then up the odds on your come bets . Which should be in your SRR range . 

It will depend on what numbers you roll as to how fast you get your money back .Also if you start rolling the same numbers it will take longer .

I wonder about this because of a time when I was rolling at a table were a guy would bet across on me and with every hit he would take that bet down . I was betting on the 6 and 8 . I rolled all the numbers and then 7 nd out with him having nothing on the table . I did this 3 times with winning vary little compared to him and I then left to think about what happened .

It is not the same experiment but close .

As far as come betting how many wins should we rack before we go up on more then 2 come bets ? I hate when I get up on 3 come bets then 7 out . Then I love when I am off and on with 2 or more come bets . 

Good Rolling .

Happy New Year all!

First, the article is great, but the last line I don’t agree with at all, it is NEVER better to place bet the 6/8 versus using come bets. It is all math. As soon/immediately as you place the 6/8 you are playing with a negative 1.5% against you. That is like going to a bank, giving them $100 to deposit and then a split of a second later you ask for your $100 back and they only give you $98.50. When you question them  the bank says, we took out the interest.

Now for the question that Finisher asks as far as how many come bets:

In class we say to start with 3 “working bets” – that is your passline bet and 2 comebets.

Conservative strategy – wait for 3 full collections, (a full collections is means a winning bet, not a comeout 7 win or a win when you put out the come bet like throwing an 11) – then put out a 4th working bet (another come bet)

Aggressive strategy – wait for 2 full collections before put out a 4th working bet

Super aggressive – use the “Big Skinny”

After the 4th working bet with any strategy wait for 2 more full collections before you put out the 5th working bet and after that do what you will

Dom

 

Finisher

Had this conversation with Dice Shark this week.  Bottom line, if you can consistently throw 10-12 times or more without a 7, any system will work.  

The challenge I am having is with the table minimums being at least $25 if you bet across you have $160 on the table each shooter.  It can go bad real fast, I know.

What I have been having some success with is with the 5 count on everyone but me.  depending on the shooter I will put a two way hardway bet.  That only put $24 on the table.  It keeps the dealers happy and if the shooter hits one of the numbers I use the winnings as a come bet, $25 and either $10 or $20 in odds, the winnings.

Most dont make it to the 5 count.  The most I have at risk is $24.  If the shooter gets hot I can add a few more come bets or a place bet or two.  I have been only playing with the winnings on all the non GTC shooters.

My conservative outlook, If I play $160 across, they hit two numbers and 7 out, I am out around $90.  5 other random throwers at the table and I can be down $400-$500 before I get the dice again.  That is a lot of making up for me to get to even.  I guess not losing as much is like winning.  It will give me a chance to make up their losses on my throws.

Sorry for rambling.

Stay safe.

Posted by: @cliffm1

Finisher

Had this conversation with Dice Shark this week.  Bottom line, if you can consistently throw 10-12 times or more without a 7, any system will work.  

The challenge I am having is with the table minimums being at least $25 if you bet across you have $160 on the table each shooter.  It can go bad real fast, I know.

What I have been having some success with is with the 5 count on everyone but me.  depending on the shooter I will put a two way hardway bet.  That only put $24 on the table.  It keeps the dealers happy and if the shooter hits one of the numbers I use the winnings as a come bet, $25 and either $10 or $20 in odds, the winnings.

Most dont make it to the 5 count.  The most I have at risk is $24.  If the shooter gets hot I can add a few more come bets or a place bet or two.  I have been only playing with the winnings on all the non GTC shooters.

My conservative outlook, If I play $160 across, they hit two numbers and 7 out, I am out around $90.  5 other random throwers at the table and I can be down $400-$500 before I get the dice again.  That is a lot of making up for me to get to even.  I guess not losing as much is like winning.  It will give me a chance to make up their losses on my throws.

Sorry for rambling.

Stay safe.

OH MY GOD!

So many things wrong here. Sometimes I wonder why people even take the class. Sorry Cliff to use you but jezzzzzzzzzz.

Had this conversation with Dice Shark this week.  Bottom line, if you can consistently throw 10-12 times or more without a 7, any system will work.  WRONG – Are you trying to win the most money or not? What a crazy statement.

The challenge I am having is with the table minimums being at least $25 if you bet across you have $160 on the table each shooter.  It can go bad real fast, I know.

What I have been having some success with is with the 5 count on everyone but me.  depending on the shooter I will put a two way hardway bet.  That only put $24 on the table.  It keeps the dealers happy and if the shooter hits one of the numbers I use the winnings as a come bet, $25 and either $10 or $20 in odds, the winnings.

MAN! Why the heck are you betting $160 across? COME BETS!

5-count – Success with it? The 5-count will not make you a winner. It is not there to make you a winner. It is there for you to pay rent while you wait for your turn with the dice and it has been proven MATHEMATICALLY to eliminate shooters. Now you want to put a hardway bet out on a random roller? So you are going to lose in the long run on a random shooter and because of this you want to put a hardway bet out on a random shooter that has a HUGE house edge. Yep, that is smart!

Sorry but I can get so frustrated sometimes. And students wonder why they are not winning even though they have a positive SRR. It is all in the betting people! Just makes me crazy. If you are not winning you think you need to change the way we tell you to bet – the way I bet on myself and every shooter.

People in my 30+ years of playing craps I have tried everything. There is nothing you can come up with that I haven’t tried. Nothing works except what we teach you to do on random shooters. You have got to get it out of your mind that you are not there to make money on a random roller because you will never make money on a random roller in the long run. Until you all get that concept you will always not make as much money as you should.

I hope this response doesn’t prevent posters from posting what they are doing. I also hope that the poster doesn’t take this personally. I actually need posts like this to make a point. I want everyone to make as much money as they can when they go out to play. When you are with your friends and discuss betting, I want you to think of the math, not what worked in that session. You need to think about what will work always

Dom

 

 

Blue arura has come out . Now that after your 30 plus years you have found what works ALL the time well you know just as I do that nothing works ALL the time that is one reason they call it a crap shoot .

When I took the class from you Dom I DID NOT HEAR THE COME . Was it just to soon for all of us to hear that way . The point 7s do come even for the best . Not all can roll the best every roll . We all have good days and bad days . 

You say in class that 10 % may get good at this and that is only if you work at it and listen . Just think about when you started and did other things to learn more .You may have followed the advise given you but something tells me that you had some of your own thoughts also .

I have seen more come betters in the last few years even though most place bet .

I believe that GTC teaches the best way to play and win this game . You have made the classes better and this site better . Not all will do as you teach . I found that out when I took your class . There was a guy there that had taken the class earlier who was talking about how the class had improved his game . He was telling the instructor about how much he has made on the props bets . I know then that not all will listen to what you preach . At that time the best bets were on the 6 and 8 . There was not much talked about betting back then .

I remember when I first got on this site when I asked a question the response would be HAVE YOU TAKEN A CLASS YET . That has changed and I think you have done a great job with that and with the classes even though I have not taken another one .

I hope you have a better 2021 and hope more listen .

Good Rolling. 

Thanks Finisher for the words!

Yes, things have changed since you took the class. The biggest change happened is when personnel changed. Betting became a bigger part of the class and how we bet became as important if not even more important than the throw.

I am a math guy from maybe my first day of school, maybe even before that. I say in class that even if the student doesn’t gain an edge when they are throwing the dice, if they just follow our betting – using the 5-count and becoming a come bettor, they will be a more profitable player than they ever were. And the reason is this – “To win more money at craps you need to learn how to lose LESS money on the bad days”

The way to do this is to throw the math right back at the casinos. I ask in class if anyone ever heard a stick/dealer ask the whole table if anyone wants a come bet? The answer is always NO. One reason may be that the dealers don’t understand come betting, but the main reason is because the casinos know that come bettors are playing with a lower house edge. That is why the comps for a come bettor are lower.

Yes, I had many conversations with my partners about betting early on and we have tried many things, but it has always gone back to the math of the game.

So all I am saying is that if anyone wants to try different ways, do it in practice and record 5000 rolls of that betting you want to try. I know because I honor the math that the GTC way we teach NOW is the way to go. Maybe that is why we have been in business for 22 years now and maybe why we have the biggest classes of any other so called teachers out there and maybe that is why I am the one that is banned from the whole state of MS, LA, cruise ships, 70% of the casinos in Vegas, and listed as the 8th best gambler, (I hate the use of the word gambler) of all time.

Just saying

Dom

Dom that is why I have been with you for 11 out of the 22 . That said I have gotten ride of some of my BAD habits .Threw the class and being on this site . I started playing craps in the 70s so had a lot of bad habits to start with . Back then I threw from the end of table but did try to hit the dice in the same spot on the table .I never pressed a bet back then also . Was a low roller and still am today . I hope to hear from more new players . It seems that some don’t know about this site after taking the class . I would of thought that with everybody at home more there would be more posts . Just a thought how much do you guys talk about the site in class ? It would be a good thing to mention at the end of class .

Good Rolling. 

You are one of our most prolific posters as well as an all around good guy Finisher! I do appreciate you!

Actually we talk about the site/forum at the beginning of the class, in the middle, and at the end again. Janis actually puts all new primers on the forum even before they take the class, again one of the many changes. When we hand out the comment sheets about the class we again ask if they are on the site. We also give 2 years free for every primer.

I guess it is like getting everyone to bet properly – you can lead them to water to take a drink, but they might not drink the water – cool aid…. LOL

As long as this discussion is going on there is another thing I say in class about betting – here it is:

We have a self serving reason to get everyone to bet the way we tell you to bet. We want you to be successful because if you are successful you will come back and take a refresher, tune up, video elite, and advanced class. If you are not successful you will just try to search out others and other betting methods that are all over the internet and leave GTC.

I truly believe this Finisher, I want everyone that we have taught over the many years to be a GTC’er

Dom

 

     Hello to all my fellow GTC gang. Happy New Year. Couldn’t resist this topic. I know many of you and have played with many of you. It all comes down to whether or not you play to win or you want to gamble. Many guys want the juice that gambling gives you. Playing the Big Skinny is my game. It is boring if played methodically but I know exactly what it entails from a mathematical standpoint. Dom and the GTC instructors will always be my mentors and I have been playing this game regularly since my twenty-first birthday and I’m going to be seventy in a few months. I love this game and I know what it looks like if I want to go crazy and I know what it looks like when I want to win. 

     I’m not the casinos favorite player and not the hosts favorite client. I’m not an exciting guy. What can I say. I don’t like the huge swings that going across with place bets gives me and I know and love math. GTC is the first place where I have heard an honest approach to this game. The message is delivered time and time again. The truth is in the math. Develop the toss. Work on all of the physical aspects of the toss. Doc and Janis can tell you anything you want to know. 

     I have no vested interest in trying to convince  anyone how to play at the tables. For me it is like watching someone bake for me. In 5 minutes I can tell exactly where you’re at on your path. I think slow and steady wins the race. I have never had a huge win. I don’t need to.  When I reread what Skinny has written over the years, I have nothing to say. That’s the way I react when I hear the truth spoken. When Dom talks the math, it’s game over.

     If I’m playing at a table with a bunch of guys that want to go crazy, have at it. I know what that feels like. I’m a guy who is used to being successful at what I do and nine times out of ten it is just not that exciting. If I’m running a restaurant it’s making sure the tables and silverware are clean and the bathroom is spotless. Nobody wants to hear that. They all  want to own a restaurant because they want to sit with their friends and drink wine and tell tall tales. As they do, the customer is left wondering why their food is cold and there is dry spinach on their fork. 

     I wish all of you a great New Year in 2021. May we all return to the game we love. Much success. Decide ahead of time who you are and hold true to it. I have seen many come and go on this board. Many with their tail between their legs after getting clobbered with their new system. Hope to see all of you at the next class. Doughboy

 

     

 

Dom I asked that question because of Jeremy Young post on Dec, 28 about that he did not know about access to site . Love all the great changes that you have made threw the years .

Good Rolling . 

Doughboy,

You are so right on.  Rose and Doc really work on our throw all the time, as we practice at home and make adjustments as we see them needed –small imperfections can infiltrate both items so it does take a lot of discipline.  On any given turn at the table we may lose but we won’t lose much with come betting.  But for any given trip we usually win—it may be small or larger but it is a winning trip none the same.  

Rose and Doc

Well said Doug – Doughboy!

Dom

DoughBoy N o matter were we go the wife always ask how clean is the bathroom .

Good Rolling.

I am not still convinced about come betting yet . One reason is some times I have bet one come bet on others and then did not hit it for many numbers or not at all . Then there was the time that I decided to just do come bets that I posted about in a old post . I made lots of money for both place betters and the DP betters . If I get to were I can throw the same numbers it may change . But it seems that I throw to many different numbers .

One guy were I play is a come better but he only bets one at a time .He starts with 50.00 with max. odds and if he wins and likes the roller he will go to 75.00 max. odds . Other wise he just waits till his place bet hits . On one of my rolls he was happy when I rolled the 9 for 2 hits then 7 nd out for his 100.00 come bet to win . o I was happy with my 14.00 win from that 9 .

It seems easy to get past your SRR before you get 3 hits with come bets . like the roll with the guy that bet across . I would of had 2 come bets out there with full odds for a much bigger loss then I had with just betting the 6 and 8 . I hit both of them on all 3 rolls but did 7 out before rolling a repeater during all 3 rolls .

Good Rolling.

Finisher,

Do the casinos use observations as you are doing to analyze the edge? Obviously the answer is no. They use MATH. I say in class that we can disagree about politics or religion, but the one thing we can not disagree with is that 2+2 = 4. 2+2 will always equal 4!

Comebets are the lowest house edge bet you can make. The lowest house edge bet using a place bet is placing the 6/8. That edge is 1.5% against you. A comebet with even just 1X odds has a house edge of .85% – less than 1%!

It truly amazes me why people want to argue with Math. Even when it comes to science you will have one scientist argue one way and another the other way, but name me one mathematician that doesn’t say that 2+2 = 4

Their is an old saying that you and I grew up with because we are about he same age – “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”

Do what you will

Dom

FIRST think back a little . w When you stated playing craps did you come bet and how long did it take you to switch to only come bets . Did you just say now that I learned the math I will only come bet . I bet that you were not a come better from the start . Now after you have gotten good enough to throw repeaters it seems that come betting is the way to go since you can get past 3 rolls with a win . I agree about the math . I also see that the math says that the 7 comes about every 6 rolls and if you are not throwing repeat numbers you will have to get past your SRR for wins with come bets with more at risk . 

This is what I am thinking . When I roll . Pass line bet with place the 6 and 8 . if I roll one of them for point take it down and put up come bet . If the come bet goes to another number take down the place bet so I then have one come bet working and one up for the next roll . If the 6 or 8 roll right out the gate that will go to odds on the come bets . With this in mind I do loose to the math about the P7OUT . But I think there is less risk then to just do come bets from the start . I will do this in practice first for 5,000 rolls before going to casino if time permits .

When I took your class I found out real fast that not all listen to what you say and do what you teach in class . That was when you were not talking about bets that much .

That one day when I did have a great roll for me it turned out not so great for the money part with only on come bets . Yes it was just one roll but did make me to want to think more about come betting . Like I made 6 or more points and had come bets in the teens with only one win . That made me think to the negative about come bets . Hope you can see why . I went way passed my SRR in that roll and only won one come bet out of so many . Those come out 7s killed killed me and I did not change my set on the come outs . I did win some so was not upset and every body at the table were happy even the DP player . He even told me that I had a great roll which most DP players say nothing .

Thinking about that what is the math on the dark side with D come bets ?

Since at home a lot now been on Utube to see a lot of crap on craps . But do not see much about only come bets . I have seen more come betters at the tables in the casinos . 

Also this way of betting would be a different kind of 5 count on myself . For after I am passed the 5 count I would have come bets working . Just a thought .

Here we go with my two cents, for what its worth.

I play at least once a week and sometimes try to get two a week.  Usually meet another GTCer to get two of us at a table.

Last week there was a $440 across guy to my left ($120 on 6&8, $50 on rest) Plus various crazy crap bets.  first roll the shooter made a point, then threw a 5, then 7.  The across guy collected $70 on the one hit and was down $370 plus the crap bets.  The next throw was a PSO, down another $440, total $810.  I 5 counted and had no money on the table.  

My way of looking at this, not being a math guy, is the across guy needs to hit 8-10+ more times to just break even.

My experience has been with the GTCers at the table, we may not have 40+ rolls everytime, but we tend to throw more repeaters than random.  as an example, I had a 15 roll hand, 8 out of the 15 were 6’s and 5 out of the 8 were hard 6’s.  The come bets paid off big.  The across guy went through his $2500 buy in twice ($5k) and left with nothing.  I buy in with $500 and left with $1,000.  May be boring, but a win is a win and I will take it.

 

Cliff I guess you did not read how the plan was . If you get passed 3 rolls you are on just with come bets if you throw 2 box numbers . So the guy with all across would have got his first bets back and be up on come bets till end of roll . Maybe making more come bets after wins on the first  2 . On the 2nd roll is when the first come bet is made . If a box number is rolled then that win will be the odds for that come bet .the 3rd roll will be with another come bet . if you do full odds then that number you rolled will be odds and the rest you put into rack or use for new come bet . If you roll another box number then you are down with full odds and that means you should take all place bets down also . You now have 3 working bets with full odds . With little out of rack . I know that this is a big risk but after you get passed the 5th roll you will be on to your way of doing it any way with less out of your rack . 

If and when you have that vary short roll you still win on that come bet you have made early . Or if you feel that you are not going to get passed the 2 nd roll just take down your bets and hope that you roll that 7 for the win on that first come bet . I hope to at least roll an SRR of 5 or more .

Now like I said to Dom if I was able to roll repeaters more often I would be a come better all the time right out the gate . But since I have not gotten to that point yet I will try this in practice to see how it works . I have tried just come bets with no luck so far in the casino and in practice .

Good Rolling.

I realize I am probably wasting my time here by trying to give you a logical explanation using the math of the game to explain why come bets are better than place bets.  You seem to like relying more on anecdotal evidence than science.  You are much more influenced by a small handful of times when come betting did not work for you or trying to explain how under certain circumstances place betting works better in those specific situations.  These minor events prove nothing.  They are not in the least scientific or proof of anything.  Never the less I feel compelled to explain once again how math proves come bets with odds are better than place bets.  While I may not be able to convince those of you that refuse to listen to logic, it is possible there are those who will have an open mind and decide to listen to the sound advice GTC is attempting to teach students.

I remembered reading about a simulation Dr. Don Catlin did to prove that the five count can help random shooters save money at the table, even with a random throw.  I am going to use the results of those simulations to prove my point.

Dr. Don Catlin is a Professor Emeritus of Mathematics at the University of Massachusetts.  In addition to being a professor of mathematics, Dr. Catlin, through his company Technigame, analyzes new games that the casinos are looking to put onto their floors.  Many of the “new” games that have become popular with the playing public were first analyzed by Dr. Catlin.

So much for his credentials. Now to his research.  Following is an excerpt from the article he wrote on the subject.

In his first experiment Dr. Catlin did a computer simulation of 200 million random shooters placing 6 and 8 for $6 each. One player…bet on every shooter who rolled the dice.  …Dr. Catlin had the bets working at all times once they were placed, even on subsequent come-out rolls. The results:

• Player total wager was $6,252,014,616
• Player lost $94,702,858

Dr. Catlin did not analyze pass/come bets in this simulation.  But using his results for place bets and the math for pass/come bets I submit the following:

If this same player was using pass/come bets with only single odds instead the results would have been as follows:

• Player total wager was $6,252,014,616
• Player lost $53,017,084

If this same player was using pass/come bets with double odds the results would have been as follows:

• Player total wager was $6,252,014,616
• Player lost $37,887,209

If this same player was using pass/come bets with 3X-4X-5X odds the results would have been as follows:

• Player total wager was $6,252,014,616
• Player lost $23,382,535

If this same player was using pass/come bets with 5X odds the results would have been as follows:

• Player total wager was $6,252,014,616
• Player lost $20,381,568

You can make these figures palatable by dropping the six digits from the right and rounding up or down.

The place bet player wagered $6,252 and lost $95.

The 1X odds player wagered $6,252 and lost $53.

The 2X odds player wagered $6,252 and lost $38.

The 3X-4X-5X odds player wagered $6,252 and lost $23.

The 5X odds player wagered $6,252 and lost $20.

The math of the game clearly shows that players who make pass/come bets with odds lose less money than players making place bets on the 6 and 8 with random throwers.  A controlled shooter who can reduce the appearance of the seven would make a profit.  That profit would be greater when making pass/come bets with odds rather than place bets.

Skinny—you are so right on.  Over the years you have made Rose and Doc true believers in the advantage of pass line / come betting with the most odds you can afford that your bankroll will allow.  Thank you for all you have contributed to GTC over the years and I am sure you will continue in the future.

Rose and Doc  

Boy Skinny, I am so happy you entered into this conversation and took the time to post your rebuttal. I was thinking to myself that I didn’t have the time this morning to do the same – BUT, I couldn’t have done it as well as you have!

Anecdotal evidence can be used in a court of law sometimes but not when it comes to the math of the game of craps. The argument is always the same when it comes to come bets because most of those so called dice gurus that have sprung up on the internet over the years just DON’T understand the math of the game. I wonder many times if they even know the 2+2 = 4! I really get upset when I see some of their videos, I try not to waste my time but I will get a student that emails about one so I look, I get upset because it is such BS and they have tons of views.

The one thing that will always be with GTC is that we will always teach and respect the math and physics of the game of craps.

So as not to avoid the question Finisher, when I started to play the game of craps I did passline with odds and a place bet on either the 6 or 8 and 1 comebet with odds. Why either the 6 or 8? No reason …. LOL ….. I just decided before I started the session which I would place. No logic at all. Within 6 months I was strictly a come player even though many that I played with at the time were place bet players. And the reason I switched is because of Skinny and our conversations together.

So yes, I have changed from the beginning. I am saying that I was wrong. But I believe that people on this site are hear to learn from MY mistakes and I am trying to make them better.

Again the old expression – you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him/her drink

Dom

 

Dom, what convinced Rose and Doc to use pass line / come bets is the simple math.  But rather than percentages we like to use dollars $$$$!!  Come bets have a house advantage of 1.4%.  Place bets on the 6 and 8 have a house advantage of 1.5%.  The appearance is that the house vig (or advantage) is about the same.  In the form of a percentage that is correct—BUT dollar wise it is quite different.  Examples:

1.  A come bet of $10 has a cost to the house of 1.4% or $.14.  Add odds of 5 times odds (which has no house edge) and the house advantage is still only $.14 on your total bet of $60.  With 5 times odds the house percentage is will below 1/2 of one per cent.  

2.  Now place the 6 and/or 8 for $60 and you have a house advantage of 1.5%–which mentioned earlier is about the same.  The difference–the big difference–is the 1.5% is on the entire $60 wager.  So the house advantage is a whopping $.90—6.43 times higher.   

Combine the come bet and odds with a good GTC throw and you can easily have a small advantage over the house. 

If you think the casino can’t build those multi-million casinos on the $.90 you are incorrect.  They depend on it.

 

Rose and Doc

 

Dom If you go back and look at a post you did about ideas for keeping losses down you will see that at the end of your post you talked about what I am talking about . I think that I may have read it and got this idea from your post or maybe not .

Getting a little older so do forget what I have read at times and think they may be my own thoughts .

I was surprised when I looked back at old posts and found just what we are talking about . It was 8 years ago so things do change and that may be why I asked when you started doing come bets only .

Since you are into soft wear  guy have you seen the guy that records is roll and has meter to show his SRR  while playing and box numbers ?

Good Rolling.

No I haven’t Finisher

Dom It would be interesting to know what you think about the soft wear that he uses . 

You can find on Utube  GeorgeFrom Cy . Some times he is live and chats .

He does talk a lot about his shots as he plays .

I have seen a lot of videos since the virus has started but not vary many about come bets . There is a lot of crazy stuff out there .

Just thought you would be interested in how he put the throws and the SRR along with the SOR on while he rolls .

My first session with what I was talking about did not go as I hoped but will see how it goes with more throws . I will let you know after 5,000 rolls .

Good Rolling.

Sorry Finisher, I don’t have the time or really want to look at other so called experts that put a lot of CRAP out there. Actually their stuff really makes me crazy because the information they are giving out is so wrong. Without sounding too conceited …. LOL ….. our YouTube channel is the best for info.

Dom

Dom I just wanted your thoughts on the program that he uses . Not any think about his betting since you are in that line of work or am I wrong . You and GTC are the best when it comes to craps but I wanted you to just look at the screen and see how he records everything .

 

Skinny  I have a question for you about the math . It is when you get up on 2 come bets which may take more then 3 or more rolls . When this happens what does the math say is your chances on hitting one of them ? I am just wondering how close you would be to your SRR ? 

We have had many discussions and I know that if anybody has the answer it will be you .

Thank You and I hope all is well and that you are staying safe .

Just to let you know they took that great machine away that some made 7 star with . You use to be able to set the dice and throw them on it .  The new one does not let you do that . The points earned is a lot different also . Was for every 5.00 of action get 1 point . Now for every 200.00 you get 1 point . I no longer play on any craps machine . 

Good Rolling.

@finisher  This is a GREAT question.  Many players who do not understand the math behind craps make erroneous decisions based on wrong ideas.

The dice do not have any memory.  The odds are the same at the start of the roll as they are at roll 100.  I am sure you have heard if you flip a balanced coin and it comes out heads 100 times in a row, the chance of it coming up heads on toss 101 is still 50-50.

It is the same for dice.  For a random roller his SRR is 1 to 6.  That means that every times he rolls the dice he has a 1 in 6 chance of throwing a 7.  After rolling the dice 5 times the odds do not favor his throwing a 7.  There is an equal chance for his throwing any face on each of the two die at roll 6 as he had at roll 1.  In other words there are 36 possible outcomes with the two die on each and every roll for a random roller.  6 of those 36 outcome is a seven and 30 of those outcomes are not a seven.  Thus he has 6 chances out of 36 of throwing a seven on each and every roll no matter how many times he has rolled the dice before.

The same is true for a controlled shooter with an SRR of 1 to 7, 1 to 8, 1 to 9, etc.

On each and every throw the controlled shooter has the same chance of throwing a seven based on his SRR.  It does not matter how long the roll progresses.  The dice do not know how many rolls the player has made.  The chance of throwing a seven is only based on the SRR not on how long the roll has been going.

This is why controlled players who take down their bets are costing themselves money instead of saving money.  If you have an edge over the house you should take advantage of that edge.  Your edge does not decrease as the roll progresses.

Of course there are other factors that go into your ability to control the dice beyond your SRR.  If any of those factors are in play at any roll then you should take down your bets.  For example, if you get nervous because of the amount of money you have at risk, if you get fatigued because of the length of time you have been playing or the roll has been extending, if something distracts you at the table and causes you to lose your focus or if you do not feel you are at your optimum ability for whatever the reason then you should consider taking down your bets.

But you should never alter your betting because a roll is extending and you fear you are approaching your SRR.  The dice do not know that.  It is only in ones’ head where that concept can alter our behavior.

Now if one were to take this to its logical conclusion one might hypothesize the following:  Skinny is telling me if I have an edge over the house, I should have that edge on each an every roll.  Shouldn’t I be betting table max on each bet over which I have an edge all the time?

NO, but not because the odds don’t favor you doing that.  If you had a money tree that grew all the money you wanted whenever you wanted it then YES, you should bet table max on every bet you have an edge over the house.  But since you do not, then if you bet too much money you could go broke before your edge has a chance of bringing you a profit.

This is why I suggest getting your money on the table slowly, but once a roll progresses and you have a profit, start to get aggressive in putting money on the table.  But only use future winnings to increase your bets so that you do not impact the profit you have made up till then.

Just because a controlled shooter has an edge, it does not mean he does not have to observe sound money management techniques.  If you bet too much too soon, bet beyond your risk tolerance or make bets where you do not have an edge you can certainly lose more money than your advantage predicts mathematically.

This can be a complicated game and it is easy to make mistakes if one were to do it all alone.  But GTC has a number of skilled, knowledgeable and talented individuals who have studied this game over many years.  And as the expression for the Hair Club goes, “I’m not only the Hair Club president, I’m also a client!” each and every instructor in GTC is a player.  We not only advise students as to the best means of beating the casinos, we also use those same techniques ourselves with our own money.  We practice what we preach.

@Finisher I realize you have been with GTC a long time and believe in our advice.  I know you are still struggling with changing some old habits but making progress.  Curiosity and healthy skepticism are good traits because it keeps us all on our toes.  Keep the questions coming because that is how we all can learn and become better at this game. 

We do this because “Winning is the Most Fun” 

Skinny–absolutely perfect.  You are so right on.  Thank you for what you do for GTC with your posts.

Rose and Doc